SS Planning Debate, July 2013

Hello Anarchy!

The following is a transcript of all mails that relate to a discussion between several Anarchy! members on planning Space Stations. If you wish to add something to this debate, go ahead and post a reply to this topic!

Licentia Aeternum!
Earth Republic

____________

On 7/11/2013 4:00 PM Earth Republic wrote:
I like that idea! It allows for us to still seize as many stars as possible while also letting us keep them in a tight pattern. Perhaps a vertical band from the alliance zone down? We could theoretically seize everything along that line all the way across the Expanse if we continued in an upward direction, as well

Great idea, McShaw!
Earth Republic

P.S. The two latest mails have been edited into the forum thread, as well

--------------
On 07/11/2013 04:15:17 AM McShaw wrote:
How about putting our SS's in two parallell strings of stations, close enough to seize a complete band of stars with say lvl 14 or 15 stations. Then if/when we upgrade the stations further then we can seize into the outside of the band and keep supporting colony clusters in cener of each 4 stations. Like in the example below where we then can grow uppwards and downwards if we upgrade stations above 15.


S S S S S S S S S S
c c c c c c c c
S S S S S S S S S S

This would eventually cover a 160-200 (or something like that, need to think about that) unit wide area of any length. Then we can put another line when one is fully expanded.

// Mc

--------------
On 7/10/2013 9:45 PM Earth Republic wrote:
Hey all,

IMHO, we should try to shoot for lvl 20 in more critical areas, as that allows for members only excavators. I do think that we should only need lvl 20 in our personal zone, and probably not much beyond that (just on principle

I guess that lvl 15 or so isn't too unreasonable a lvl to target, though I still feel that we might as well take all buildings on a SS to as high as we can (in this case, to lvl 18), as it gives us the most influence per station. Also, if you have lottery zones established, then E usually comes in pretty well. I have 332E, down from 400 last week, much of it from the lottery and the remainder from contests. Also, if we're following our SS plan building policy, then the cost of plans is spread out amongst everyone, reducing E cost.

Oh, and referring to the flawed math in an earlier mail, I believe I can answer that: I think I misinterpreted icy's meaning. I think what he meant was that the 100 stars are contained in a 7500 square unit area, but a maxed SS can seize far beyond that range. So, McShaw's math is right (I've confirmed this myself). Our SS's would need to be ~173.2 units apart from each other. However, to seize everything within that area, we would need a completely maxed station, as otherwise we lose 16 stars within easy seizure distance. Not much, but they add up quickly (5 new SS's with this pattern=the loss of 80 influence points).

Oh, and btw, I've fixed the "not able to post new messages" problem on the Command Center. Turns out I hadn't enabled the permission for other members to post xD. I'm sending out an alliance mail after this to let everyone else know. Also, I'm going to take a direct copy of this mail sequence and paste it into the forums for everyone else to see.

Licentia Aeternum!
Earth Republic

--------------
On 07/10/2013 05:01:27 PM McShaw wrote:
Just couldn't drop it. I'm really tired right now soo please verify this youreself before accepting it, but i think that if we require lvl 18 parlaments then the breakpoint will be lvl 15, up to and including lvl 15 it's cheaper to level a station, above 15 it's cheaper to spawn a new one.

But if we factor in that it's kind of unrealistic to build SS plans above 13 without subsidize i'd say that lvl 13-14 might be a nice target lvl for our stations but then we need to have a few high level stations to use in combat too scattered around in our space.

// Mc


--------------
On 07/10/2013 04:12:02 PM Newpyre wrote:
Hi,

Perhaps this is a good issue to continue on the forums. Since I'd hate to loose these mails. I just tried to start a new thread next to Welcome and General, called 'Station Planning' but I do not see how I can. So I'll continue here.

As I see it, there are two issues here:

1. What is the optimal end situation. On the one hand the optimal end situation could be that all stations at level 25 are just able to seize all stars in a closely-knit web. On the other hand it could be cheaper in terms of resources to use more stations at a lower level. We know we are not limited in the number of stations we can launch so the question is: at what level is an extra station cheaper?

2. If question 1 is answered there is the question of locations and how to determine them. This seems to be largely answered.

Kind regards,
Newpyre

--------------
On 07/10/2013 02:49:08 PM McShaw wrote:
I think that math is flawed, if there is in average 1 star per 75 square units then the 100 stars that a SS can size at lvl 25 will be contained within 7500 square units. 7500 square units is a square with sides of about 86.6 units. My conclusion is that we need to place the SS's about 170 units from each other. Another conclusion to make of that is that the IBS only have to be leveled to lvl 9 if only the range is considered (now, it does also increase the number of stars that can be seized by one per level but anyway...).

Please correct me if it's my math that's actually flawed! :-)

// Mc

--------------
On 07/09/2013 07:38:29 AM Earth Republic wrote:
Hey all,

Regarding Newpyre's proposal to connect our territory in zones 4|-4 and 3|-1, I have to say that I like that idea :)Also, I just talked with icydee about how far out an SS can seize, given its 250-unit range and potential to seize up to 100 stars, and he said:

If you divide the number of stars into the area of TLE you get one star per 75 square units. If you assume an optimum size of SS is size 25, it can cover 100 stars = 7500 square units. You don't have to worry about range if you seize the closest 100 stars.

In other words, the 250-unit range contains 100 stars, the exact number a maxed station can seize. Therefore, to seize as many stars as possible, we should make our stations 500 units from every other station. Now we just need to decide whether we want to start from the 3|-1 end or the 4|-4 end

Oh, and a note on the above, assuming we are still going to follow our plan of only upgrading to lvl 15, we will have a few gaps in our influence sphere until we max them out. I personally don't see it as a problem, as we will save a lot of time later on, and have a much easier time getting influence.

As for defending our stations, I think 100 fighters for a station by itself will be more than adequate for the time being (we could probably make do with 40-50 temporarily), with a few spies on it assigned to counter esp. Ideally, I would like to have each station defended by at least one planet as well, but that can come later if need be. We're not planning on fighting anyone just yet, but if we get into a fight, we'll have to beef up on station security.

Anyway, just my thoughts on this. If you have an opinion on this, I'd love to hear it

Licentia Aeternum!
Earth Republic

P.S. Umang just launched a station for me. It's headed for the bottom left corner of 3|1, so it's possible that in the future it could serve as a bridge across zones 3|1, 3|0, and 3|-1.

--------------
On 07/08/2013 12:24:07 PM Newpyre wrote:
Hi,

What I did earlier is give each station a star. Right now I have about 30 fighters orbiting a station and about 24 spies on each station.

What I intend on doing in the longer run is have a planet per station, with more fighters per station and less spies per station. Say 60/10.

In the longer run, I'd say I could easily support more than one station per planet. I have about 20 space ports per planet now. Most of them are very low level, about level 3/4. And I can hold about 150 ships per planet right now. So I suppose I could easily have two stations per planet. All my intel/security/espionage are lvl 17. I hold 51 spies per planet. Of course I could up that as well.

And finally, all of my planets have 70/71 plots. Of course I could first bring this to 74 and then to a 104 with the Pantheon of Hagness. That would allow for 30-34 more space ports.

So especially in theory, defending a space station of 40 does not seem to be a problem. If we believe a fighter or 100 per station and a spy or 6-10 is enough defence.

Kind regards,
Newpyre.

--------------
On 07/08/2013 10:08:09 PM McShaw wrote:
I sure could see myself with one or two more stations, but i'm not sure where to put them or how to protect them since they probably will be by themself somewhere?
Any thoughts on that?

But besides that, i'm all for having me some more SS :-)

// Mc

--------------
On 07/08/2013 08:06:43 PM Umang wrote:
I have proposed the station transfer.

--------------
On 07/08/2013 06:05:56 PM Newpyre wrote:
Hi Umang,

Please transfer the new ss to me. I cannot do it myself, since anyone can transfer a space station to anyone but himself.

I put Earth in the cc because I'd like his advise. Personally I thought it would be nice to connect the regions in 3|-1 to those in 4|-4 via the area where Antubis is in 3|-3, via where McShaw is in 3|-2, to the south of the Anarchy zone in 3|-1.

Starting in 4|-4 in the Doofl system, I'd put the next station in the Andibleeth ssytem for example. Which is 7 stars above Doofl. There's no specific pattern involved here, but a more pragmatic approach. But I'm open to suggestions.

So yes, Umang, I would very much like to launch another one. But let's have a - short - discussion on where exactly.

And by the way - if I could dump all my space stations on somebody, you for example Earth - I could also launch stations myself and Umang could cooperate with McShaw. Who would be very pleased about that I'm sure.

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Hi,

I also like a dual band of stations with level 20 parliament + command and level 14-16 influence buildings from 4,-4 upward. We need to be a bit more specific for actual implementation. I don't have the time for that right now. I'm starting with building 10 of everything in my ROF in 4,-4. I'm going to build upward from there. I'm hoping that Antubis is willing to supply the stations in between 4,-4 and perhaps Umang the stations in the right bottom corner of 3,-1. We'll plan the way upward later.

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Looking at the alliance starmap, I'm seeing a whole bunch of stations of ours clustered around the bottom left of 3|-1 and the top left of 3|-2. We should probably think about (eventually) moving them via BHG, perhaps to form a second row after we complete the row directly between 3|-1 and 4|-4? 

Looking at where we should place our stations, they should be about 175 units apart, so now we just need to decide if we want to start at 3|-1 or the 4|-4 end. Your thoughts?

Oh, and we should probably get started on this soon, Da Posse's continuing to gain influence and we're currently stagnating at #8 in stats 

Hi,

Clear then we'll make two bands of stars 175 units apart from 4,-4 upward.
I'm building 10 of everything to start with.
Anyone hear anything from Antubis?
Earth, how could I best make a summary article in this thread, a how to participate for if you look at this thread when you're new.

Kind regards,
Newpyre.

I'll proceed with making lvl 15 plans for everything, and go from there (limited SS Labs atm)

I haven't heard anything from Antubis for awhile...

Well, firstly, you might want to mention something about our system of plan-building (think the unfinished welcome thread has a brief outline of it). Having the newer members making starter plans for stations is probably one of the most important things for helping the alliance out. I feel the more advanced SS labs in our alliance are put to better use making higher-lvl plans. A bit on how we are now going to lay out our stations wouldn't hurt, and maybe something about partnering with more powerful members for SS launches?

Beyond that, I'm not really sure. But I can always edit your post with more info if we find more to add, so whatever goes into it now doesn't necessarily have to be the final message.

Thanks for your input and work!
Earth Republic

Dear Anarchy! Alliance members,

The attached image shows SS Laozi Li in 4,-4. If the 4 influence buildings on Loazi Li were at level 16, Laozi Li could seize 64 stars. The left white square contains the 64 closest stars. So if we would create a band of two strings of space stations all the way up to 3,-1. The ideal distance between space stations would be 70, as can be seen in the attached picture.

Anyone disagree?

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Dear Anarchy! Alliance members,

I've made a map of the goal-scenario with our dual-band space stations. It's too big to attach, but you can find it here:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B28XosgeRrZQa2dXa0RVOXh6RWM/edit?usp=sharing

- As you can see, it will take 13 new space stations to seize a band of about 20 stars wide from 4,-4 to 3,-1.
- We go nicely from SS Laozi Li at the bottom, via Antubis space, to Anarchy! space where almost everybody is present in the bottom right corner.

I hope Niski is willing to support station 1 and perhaps 3 as well. And that Antubis could support 6 and perhaps 7. I could support 3, 4 and 5. I suppose we could divide 8, 9 10, 11, 12, 13 amongst all who are present in the bottom right corner of 3,-1. (Umang, Bobby, Orca, Earth, Niski, Dovan, Chocobo, Chmmr)

Kind regards,
Newpyre

I like your map, it's a good illustration of what we're trying to do! As for resources, I'm sure that between everyone in the alliance zone, we can easily supply Stations 8-13. I could also launch a new colony (or multiple ones) somewhere in there to act as a supply base/defense outpost (once its developed enough).

With regard to the distance between stations, I guess 70 units would work, though I recommend we stick with two lines of stations for now. That way, if/when we expand our stations, we can seize to the sides, e.g. the odd-numbered stations seize farther to the right, while the even-numbered ones seize to the left. Of course, if we're planning on connecting this first line across the Expanse, we won't need to make a second line for quite some time  .

So, yeah, I'm fine with supplying as much resources as possible to as many stations as I can. The maps you've made look good, and now we just need to act on this info and start building the SS's!

Great work!
Earth Republic

Hi McShaw,

You would seize stars in the area 750,-400 to 900,-550. I've made a visual of that:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B28XosgeRrZQTUF2blI2UHRsNnc/edit?usp=sharing
It's an approximation. -550 is a bit more to the bottom and the left side of 3,-1 is not in the visual. The squares contain the number of stars you can seize with 4 lvl 16 happiness buildings. This is to show that to cover that area you only need two space stations. Am I not understanding you correctly perhaps?

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Hi Newpire,

not sure if we talk about the same thing here?
 
The "plan" i was refering to when i stated the area 750,-400 to 900,-550 was not related to the dual band strategy, just a "personal" project where i will place 8 stations very close to each other and sieze a filled circle around them. The area i stated should hold about 300 stars unless i misscalculated it (150*150/75) which is about what 8 stations can seize at lvl 10 (which is reached very fast and with no need to use E). Then as they rach higher levels i will expand the circle with a bias downwards.
The coordinates was just a hint to the rest of you of where i was going so that we didn't start expanding in overlapping space. 

(The dual string expansion is still very much a plan and i will still assist in that, preferable as close to my colonies as possible   )

As i see it, the biggest problem is to have someone that can launch stations at a rapid pace.

Hi McShaw,

Yes, I understand it's a personal project. Perhaps I should have made it more clear that these are your stations. It was just that I thought: lets map all locations for space stations. That's handy because everyone can see where to expect stations, and where a joining space station could be launched. I just drew two boxes that hold 64 stars. I would like to draw a map of the desired end situation.

I can launch the stations at a rapid pace, if you like. The first I launched from my base ROF, for all the next stations, I will jump to the desired location so it will not take 5 days like now.

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Hi again

i didn't zoom in on your map image so i missed that it had my stations on it. That was the base of my response. I did a few minutes ago and now i'm closer to understanding you  

Not sure about the number of stars, i got from somewhere that there are about 1 star in each 75 square units and that's the basis for my plan. But then again, it doesn't really matter since the range i a lot larger than needed so it's just to expand further out if it gets crowded 

I fully agree about the power of an image, it does make it a lot easier to picture the future expansion (and i think the stations i supply should be considered just as much a common asset as all the other stations).

If you can launch a set of stations down by McToaster that would really be great, as long as it's not conflictiing with the dual line plan as it should have a higher prio.

Hi McShaw,

A single star in 75 square units? The distance between Laozi Li and the next station is 70 units. It takes the hull 5 days. 75 square units, sounds more like around 80 stars to me.

My next hull will arrive on Aug 2nd 09:00 my time. After that, I can launch stations for you quickly. Please provide me with a list of stars.

Kind regards,
Newpyre

Hi,
 
Don't miss the "square" in square units. 75 square units is a box of about 8.6 units on each side. So if a star is centered in that "box" it would mean that the stars are spaced on average at about 8-9 units apart. Looking at the starmap i think that seems reasonable?

Regarding targets for SS, it would be any non P35 planet around SR-04 (X: 887, Y: -526) (will replace the P35's with GG's as soon as my BHG has recharged...)

Are you anywhere near this system?

Do you want me to trade you some SS hulls?

// Mc

Hi McShaw,

Yes, I stand corrected, 75 square units is not 75 times 75 units, but 8.7 times 8.7 units. So what I should have said is: there are 64 stars in 4900 square units 70*70 or 80 stars in 5776 square units (76*76). So yes, this means one star per 72-76 square units, confirmed.

Nope, no need for hulls. I'm not around right now, but I will jump. I will jump to the system I need to launch the hull, so it will be here very quickly. I'll start in 4,-4 and I will move swiftly in the direction of 3,-1.

Kind regards,
Newpyre